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nate

Wow, oh wow.
How do you think so clearly w/ a little baby around?

Please, please, try to publish this. This is so well-crafted, and addresses all the addresses so clearly. Submit it to Salon, to the NYTimes as an op-ed (boy, could they use some of this real-world thinking, rather than the "gee, Yale women might want to stay home" pseudo-research), or submit it to Mothering. It's really wonderful.

liz

I second nate's comment. Please please please send this off to Salon and NYTimes and every major publication you can think of. There's no hope for change if all of us who agree with you don't go out there raise the issue and start the debate with those who don't.

Shal

Jo? You're fabulous; I think the fact that you can write this so eloquently echoes all the points you make. Please don't let stupid Old Navy get you down when you try on pants (I know, easy for me to say), but clearly you have such a marvelous talent and brain, and I hate that such a woman would feel bad because of ill-fitting pants, you know? You say everything I think, me who quit a job in the sciences with a graduate degree because I LOVE being a "stay at home" parent. I absolutely cringed when I read in Salon.com the other day that I shouldn't let 'mother love' get to me, and should keep on track with my career, because clearly it's more important that society have me in the workforce than for me to think of myself and my child's happiness first. Bah. Please, please, send this to Salon, because the women like me who are not so articulate as you *need* you!

dish

"Working doesn't mean you've turned your back on mothering, just as not working doesn't mean you've turned your back on thinking."

Thank you, Jo, for putting this out there in words. In bold, no less. I happen to be on the working side of the equation, and I feel the guilt of the working mom. But I also know that I have gone out of my way to make sure he is in the best daycare in the city, with my mom for two days (to throw in the family angle), and spend my whole weekend engaged in activities with him at my side to make up for "lost" time. And I have never heard anything but praise for how well adjusted he is for an 8-month old.

But I still give you a big wet sloppy one for posting such a well-written piece on the matter for all to digest and discuss.

Carla Hinkle

Why is it that you are the only one I have ever seen who points out that "more child care!" is not the solution to all women's ills. That point alone made the article for me.

Good God. That is fantastic. Please, please try to get it published somewhere.

parodie

Hey, I totally agree, and this seems to be a pretty commonly advocated position. I fully support you.

But... ok, I am here, I'm ready to do what it takes, I even can find some spare time (incredible!). What do I do? Where do I turn? How in the world do I turn beautiful ideals like this into reality? That is where I see the problem/disconnect: the philosophy is beautiful, but we need concrete steps that can be taken to acheive it.

tessence

The thing that I learned about Scandinavia's set-up from Crittendon's book that impressed me the most? The 6-hour work day for male or female parents while the kids are in school. Wow. Wow. And the stats that like, half the people in their legislature have young children at home.

We've got such a "perfect" system here. As all jobs demand more and more maniacal devotion and long hours, it's easy to keep all these annoying "family" issues out of the public discourse. Anyone in charge of a small child either wouldn't have time to work, or wouldn't have time to parent, and CERTAINLY doesn't have time to advocate.

DoctorMama

I told you I'd agree.

I think where people get really hung up is this: "Obviously this can be played out to ridiculous extremes which render the concept of feminism meaningless: I choose to submit to my husband and leave all important and financial decisions up to him, therefore I am a feminist because I chose it! And that's bullshit."

Problem is, where is the line of ridiculousness? When is the concept of feminism rendered meaningless? I think that's what a lot of people end up arguing about. For example, I find it ridiculous when someone who does not enjoy/is not particularly good at spending the day with small children "chooses" to do so because of some ideal of motherhood, but I know that point of view ticks some folks off.

Melanie

I think you're my hero. ;o)

Sing it, sister!

Seriously, you keep posting all these things I'm thinking about, except saying them so much better than I would.

meghan

You know, I just got an email from my former boss who thinks that the fact that I am still at home is 'an affront to all that her generation did for us.' I have yet to tell her that I plan on staying home until we get to the bottom of my son's potentially serious illness, but whatever. Perhaps I will send her to you instead of silently fuming here in the corner!

Kudos to some fine writing!


Lut C.

Great essay, fabulous!

I live in pick-a-European-country and am very grateful for it. Health care is excellent, so is education. Though I am not counting solely on the state pension either. Of course taxes are steep. But over all, I feel it's value for money.
Whenever I visit the U.S., I get the distinct feeling that I live in a slightly less dog eat dog world.

I don't know what you're implying when you say you might sound like a socialist. Around here that isn't a bad thing. Nor why this might conflict with believing in civil liberties. I'm assuming that's what you mean when you call yourself a civil libertarian.

I hope you'll post someday on why you don't believe in compulsary schooling. You mean kids should be allowed to receive home education? Not, no education at all. After today's post, I'd find that hard to believe.

Well, back to lurking.

Jen

Thanks for writing this--I am so tired of hearing women pitted against each other in this so-called "debate." In bits and pieces, we're seeing more fathers want to shift their priorities from work and spend more time childrearing, but it's still overwhelmingly the mothers who are taking that on, because of all the societal issues (women make less, childrearing is not valued, etc etc). That's what sucks to me--for me, the ideal would be every parent can have the option to work part-time, full-time, whatever, and get the support they need to do that.

Amy

I loved this, Jo. I worry that our culture seems to view both working mothers and mothers who take time off to raise children in a negative way. On some days, it seems there is no winning.

I would be interested in your thoughts on "stay-at-home" Dads. That is our plan if we are ever able to finally have children. A lot of what you say seems to apply to either parent raising children.

Of course, not being a mother myself, I sometimes feel I don't even have a right to weigh in on this. (How many times I have heard, "you won't know how you really feel until you have a baby...") But I really appreciated your thoughts, and you can be sure I will refer to them in the future.

Emmie

Great post! My favorite line:
"Working doesn't mean you've turned your back on mothering, just as not working doesn't mean you've turned your back on thinking."
Sums it up beautifully.
I have troulbe articulating this stuff sometimes, because I feeled pulled in two directions. I work part-time, and I really like it that way. I wasn't particularly happy being a SAHM (thought I was dealing with twins as a first-time mom, and a fair bit of post-traumatic whatever). But you know, I wouldn't be all that happy doing a whole lot of things (including working full time, and I'm lucky enough not to have to), because that's just me, and "me" is not a prescription for the universe. Nor does it mean that I think being a SAHM is anything less than important, legitimate work.

Denise

Great post. I wrote on a similar topic just a few days ago and have been thinking about it a lot. I agree that it seems to work better--more equally--if we try to make men's options more like women's (part-time work, more acceptance for stay-at-home dads, more flexible work) than to make women's options more like traditional men's (60 hour workweeks).

I do agree with DoctorMama that it's hard to draw the line, though, in judging "choice" feminism. It's like saying you can't be a feminist because you've "chosen" to be a cashier instead of a rocket scientist. Becoming a cashier may be a combination of choice, opportunities, finances, expediency, aptitude, etc. The same thing applies to being a stay-at-home mom vs. a working mom. Hell, some people even become mothers by surprise (not I, but I've heard of this phenomenon).

Jo

parodie, I wish I knew. I think this basic consciousness-raising, wherein we inject our thinking into the public discourse, is a step in the right direction. But there's always, always more to do. Ideas, folks? Suggestions? Websites? Blogs? Books?

We in our family take little steps away from a corporate-driven lifestyle, and y'all know I'm here making a lot of noise about everything we do. But I want to be doing more.

DoctorMama, yeah, that's an issue -- eventually someone has to draw a line somewhere or everything is meaningless, right? But. But but but everything you said.

It does seem to me, though, that people/the media/whatever are more interested in haggling over fine distinctions than stepping back to look at the big picture.

Lut C., I don't consider being a socialist a bad thing at all! And you're right, it isn't incompatible with civil liberties. But it's just not an accurate and complete characterization of how I'm thinking these days, and I find lately I'm trying to figure out how to strike a good balance toward the sort of free-market attitude toward, say, education that John Taylor Gatto talks about in Dumbing Us Down, and the need for broad social programs. How do you balance community and collective with mind-your-own-business individuality? Tough, especially in this country, where things are...how to put this nicely? FUBAR.

Anyway, I just didn't want people to be shocked when I started ranting about other things.

Stay-at-home dads: well, I can think of a few bloggers to whom that might apply. If any of them should happen to pop in and post links in the comments section, well, that'd be neato.

Jo

One more thing on choice feminism, because I so don't want to get bogged down there: I chose my example (of choosing utter submission) precisely because it was so ridiculous. Maybe a better example would be Ann Coulter claming to be a radical feminist...anyway, I think the greater burden rests on those who deride "choice" feminism, to explain why their judgment isn't, say, classist, or itself antifeminist. Besides, to some degree, it's just another straw man.

"Choice" is up for debate only inasmuch as choice operates. And here we get into the economic discussion again: the idea that anyone can just "choose" to become a rocket scientist is a fallacy held very dear in our society. (I know that's not what you were saying, Denise.)

Mmm. Class warfare. Okay, back to the previous topic.

cack

Femininism shmeminism. That's what I say. It has nothing to do with working outside the home vs. not. I work and I work because a) it makes things easier for my family, b) because it probably makes things easier for my sanity and c) most importantly because my employer makes it easy for me to enjoy the best of both worlds. Forget about longer maternity leaves and state-subsidized childcare in the U.S. I aint ever going to happen. How about more employers recognizing that to keep valuable female employees, they need to offer them the flexibility to enjoy their families as they work, albeit though job sharing, flex time, working at home, etc. It's starting but we have got a long way.

afrindiemum

what about sahds? i got one hubby at home right now. whatcha wanna know?

Meredith

Great post, and great comments!

While cack has a point that employers need to take care of their female employees, simple economics will tell any employer: why give a woman "extra" if you can hire a man and NOT give them any of those options? (Because everyone knows that men don't have kids, now do they?)

The only way for change to happen is when men start playing an equal role in childrearing and asking for the same flexibility in the workplace. And face it, while a few men will do this of their own initiative because they recognize what they're losing out on by not spending time with their family, the average guy is too busy getting through life to question gender roles and doesn't want to draw negative attention by doing anything nontraditional. There are two options: individual women can make it happen by expecting it of their male partners, and/or we can legislate it into place.

I highly doubt that legislation like this will happen in the U.S. anytime soon, but sometimes it's the only way to make things happen. I experienced this when I had my first child in pick-a-European-country: despite a paid parental leave that could theoretically be taken by either parent, basically no man took more than two weeks of vacation time. The law was changed so that there was a dedicated block of time for the father that could not be transferred to the mother - and lo and behold, 4 years later now all the men in the country talk about what a wonderful thing this is and how they'd never give that time up in all the world. At first a lot of men made fun of the law, but once enough men had experienced it, the general public saw the value of it.

My own husband was one of the first dads to go through it, and he was nervous about the response at his workplace when he requested, not the minimum leave for fathers, but several months in addition; I really feel that if he hadn't been the primary parent for those months, his level of involvement in childrearing would be much less today. As a result, we are now both planning on working part-time when we're finally done with our education -- which means negotiating these positions into existence, because very few employers would choose to offer part-time work of their own volition.

Until employers can stop stereotyping applicants by seeing "wants flexible hours or work from home/will miss work when her kids are sick/will likely end up taking maternity leave" whenever a woman of childbearing age walks in, until the majority of fathers with young children make these same demands, women's work will continue to be devalued -- in both spheres. And one way to get there, at least while the political situation is what it is, is for individual women to ask the men in their lives to step up and make those demands.

Debbie

Unfortunately, many intangibles in our society are undervalued. Unless you can assign a dollar value to the benfit derived from a particular product or service, it tends to not be viewed equally with a product or service where you can compute a bottom line value--so education, police, parenting and the like are undervalued, even though most people place a high level of importance on these functions.

It's a capitalist mentality, but it isn't smart and it hurts us all. This is where government is supposed to step in and make the tough decisions that benefit society as a whole. And this is where the system has broken down. It will only improve when people pay more attention to civic/legislative issues by communicating with their politicians and most importantly voting.

As for feminism specifically, while we've come a long way baby, many of those old feminist struggles are still front and center, along with the more evolved and nuanced issues you describe. As an example, the other day my 4 1/2 year old daughter stated to me that only men are doctors, women are nurses. WTF! She didn't pick that up at home.

CT

I think Meredith is right on. Obviously there are many complexities to this problem, but I'm going to stick with the ones most meaningful to me.
Whenever I think about how to raise any children I might have I think about the massive loss of power that *can* come with not having paid work. I know it's not true of everyone, but it is true of people in my life like my mother and sister. And in both cases the father is much less engaged with the kids. And the mother would be screwed if anything happened to the dad (sickness, death, divorce). I would be afraid to stay home without a job, frankly. Self-sufficiency is too important to my psychological make-up.
I grew up in a trad mother-at-home-father-at-work household and for a long time have mourned the lack of relationship with my dad. It made things especially difficult in the teen years. And even now I'm a little bit jealous of my nephews and how much attention they get from him. I think it's important to have a relationship with both parents - and Meredith's right, one way to ensure that is to cut back on the work week entirely. To make it a parenting issue, not a mothering issue.
Writing this makes me wonder if it also reflects the lack of value in the US on actual family (as opposed to those 'family values' we keep hearing about) and the low status of women in general that employers don't want to retain women enough to do anything about this. Speaking as a non-US born person, I was shocked when I came here and discovered how gendered women are here. And how people (mainly men but not always) are openly sexist in a way I'd never experienced.

The Aitch

Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands.

On the other hand, You said, "...Not that there isn't a unifying principle of feminism, because there is: women and men are people of equal value."

I do believe that is wrong. That has never been their unifying principle. It has always been men and women are exactly alike, therefor "whatever he gets I get" and that is simply and biologically untrue.

Jo

Aitch, you couldn't be farther off. If you'll check your history, I believe you'll find that the first incarnation of feminism claimed as its focus "woman's right to participate as full citizens: to hold property, keep their own wages, have guardianship of their children, and yes, vote" ("Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Feminism..., Rachel Fudge, Bitch issue 31). Later incarnations include cultural feminism, which maintains that women are innately different and therefore better at things like parenting and peacemaking.

The only place feminism posits that men and women are exactly alike is in the minds of right-wing conservatives, and in the offal that issues from their mouths.

CT, are you who I think you are?

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